158. After I had observed that as to my spirit I was in the starry heaven far beyond the world of our sun, for this might be observed from the changes of state and from the apparent continual progression thence, which lasted nearly ten hours, I at length heard spirits speaking near some earth, which was afterward also seen by me. When I came near to them, after some conversation, they said that visitors sometimes come to them from elsewhere, who speak with them about God and confuse the ideas of their thought. They also showed the way by which they come, from which it was perceived that they were of the spirits from our earth. Being then asked wherein their thoughts were confused, they answered that it was by those spirits saying that one must believe in the Divine as distinguished into three Persons, which they still call one God. And when they examine the idea of their thoughts, it is presented as a trine not continuous, but discrete; and with some, as three persons speaking together one to another; and with some, as two seated together, and a third hearkening to them, and then going from them; and though they call each Person God, and have a different idea concerning each, they still call them one God. They complained exceedingly that they confuse them by thinking three and saying one, when yet one ought to think as he speaks, and speak as he thinks. The spirit who in the world had been a primate and a preacher, and was with me, was then examined as to what idea he had concerning one God and three Persons. He represented three Gods, but these as one by continuity, but he presented this trinal one as invisible because Divine; and when he presented this, it was perceived that he then thought only of the Father, and not of the Lord; and that his idea of the invisible God was no other than as of nature in its firsts; from which it resulted that to him the inmost of nature was his Divine, and thus that from this he could be easily led to acknowledge nature as God. It is to be known that in the other life the idea of any one upon any subject is presented to the life; and that by this means every one is explored as to what thought and perception he has concerning matters of faith; and that the idea of the thought concerning God is the chief of them all; for by that, if it is genuine, conjunction is effected with the Divine, and thence with heaven. Being then asked what idea they had of God, these spirits answered that they did not conceive of God as invisible, but as visible under the Human form; and that they know this not only from interior perception, but also from His appearing to them as a Man; adding that if according to the idea of some visitors they should conceive of God as invisible, thus without form and quality, they could not think at all of God, since what is thus invisible does not fall into any idea of thought. On hearing this, it was given me to say to them that they do well to think of God under the Human form; and that many from our earth think in like manner, especially when they think of the Lord; and that the ancients thought in no other way. I then told them about Abraham, Lot, Gideon, and Manoah and his wife, and what is related of them in our Word, namely, that they saw God under the Human form and acknowledged Him thus seen as the Creator of the universe, and called Him Jehovah, and this also from interior perception; but that at this day that interior perception has perished in the Christian world, and only remains with the simple who are in faith.