5119. And I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup. That this signifies reciprocal influx into the goods from a spiritual origin there, is evident from the signification of "grapes," as being the goods of charity (of which just above, n. 5117), thus goods from a spiritual origin, for all the goods of genuine charity are from this source; and from the signification of "pressing into Pharaoh's cup," as being reciprocal influx. By reciprocal influx it is not meant that the exterior natural flows into the interior, because this is impossible; for exterior things cannot possibly flow into interior things; or what is the same thing, lower or posterior things into higher and prior ones; but the rational calls forth the things which are in the interior natural, and by means of this the things which are in the exterior; not that the things themselves which are therein are called forth, but that which has been concluded or as it were extracted from them. Such is the nature of reciprocal influx. It appears as if the things which are in the world flow in through the senses toward the interiors, but this is a fallacy of sense; the influx is of interiors into exteriors, and by means of this influx, perception. On these subjects I have at times conversed with spirits; and it was shown by living experience that the interior man sees and perceives in the exterior what is done outside of this, and that the sensuous has life from no other source, or that from no other source is the faculty of sense, or sensation. But this fallacy is of such a nature, and so great, that it can by no means be dispelled by the natural man, and not even by the rational unless this is able to think abstractedly from what is sensuous. These things are said in order that it may be known what reciprocal influx is.